Episode 1: Creativity, Data & Emotional Truths with Donovan Triplett
What happens when bold storytelling meets sharp strategy—and the data that connects them? In this premiere episode, Cynthia Harris, founder of 8:28 Insights, sits down with Donovan Triplett, Strategy Director at Wieden+Kennedy, to explore the emotional nuance behind great creative work, the evolving role of data, and the power of centering marginalized voices in brand storytelling. From agency-client tensions to rethinking what makes an insight truly useful, this conversation pulls back the curtain on the real dynamics behind iconic campaigns. If you care about creativity, authenticity, and human connection in marketing, this is where it starts.
Your peek behind the curtain of the insights industry starts here. Enjoy this episode of Research Revealed!
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Over the past ten years, Donovan has lived and worked in Florida, Missouri, Georgia, Texas and now New York. Those experiences have kept him reminded that people are always more than we imagine them to be. That sensibility has bled into the way he connects brands with the nooks and crannies of humanity–for brands like Delta, Hennessy, Sprite, Vitaminwater, the Brooklyn Nets, Bloomberg Media and more. Everything he does is with a sensitivity to nuanced emotions and the way culture shapes our perception of everything. In particular, advocacy for a braver, more dimensional form of representation has sat at the center of his work, and become his foundation for talks on stages at the Adcolor Conference, LVMH, the Kraft-Heinz Global Leadership Conference and more, along with writing that’s been featured in Fast Company, The Drum and a newly launched Substack. At the moment, he has no children to be proud of, but he hopes they’ll be proud of him one day.
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Cynthia 0:13
All right, let's do it. Thank you so much, Vic. Hi, Donovan. We have a lot to catch up on, but I'm very excited to
have this conversation with you and just to talk about what's been happening in your world and.
Donovan 0:24
Sorry, I.
Cynthia 0:25
That's okay.
Donovan 0:26
For some reason, it might have. Like, it's an echo. Like, I hear you, and then I hear it. You again.
Cynthia 0:35
Okay, hold on. Dennis, can you help?
Dennis 0:41
Yeah. So are you hearing an echo from me as well?
Donovan 0:44
Yeah, I'm hearing an echo forever, even myself.
Dennis 0:47
Really? Interesting. Let me check one.
Donovan 0:51
Oh, I wonder, because I have this other tab.
Dennis 0:55
Yeah, make sure. Yeah, make sure that other tab that you have is closed, because you were. You were. That first
link was to the audience, so if you were looking live. So, yeah, make sure that cloud tab.
Donovan 1:07
Yes, sorry, that. That was it. I closed that out. And then now. Now it's just one voice, which is great.
Cynthia 1:14
Okay. Okay. Are we. Are we good?
Dennis 1:16
Yeah. Let's start from the top.
Cynthia 1:17
Okay. Hi, Donovan.
Donovan 1:20
Hello.
Cynthia 1:20
Okay. Super excited to have this conversation with you. I'm really grateful that you're taking the time to talk
about things related to research and brand building. And on this podcast, we only talk to the best, and I think
that you're amongst the best to do this work, and so very excited. We are lucky that we share a couple of clients
in common and have had the opportunity to work together, which has been a privilege. But I am just excited to hear
what's been going on in your world and talk about things related to research. So to kick us off, I would love if
you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about your role as a strategy director at Wyden and Kennedy.
Donovan 1:58
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, first off, I'm Appreciate you asking me on. Flattered about the compliments. It was a
joy to work with you as well. So for me, I've been at Wieden for about four years now and have kind of, during
that time, got promoted into a strategy director. And it's been. It's been great. I think I'm. I'm fortunate to be
able to do what I really love, like I would do. You know, this is the way that I think. This is the way, you know,
the types of things that excite me just in my personal, regular life. And so to be able to essentially get paid to
tell you what. To essentially get paid to tell people what you think about things is. Is kind of cool. So I've
worked on a variety of brands in my time there. Right now, I'm Primarily on Delta Airlines, but in the past worked
on Sprite, we worked on Hennessy, have worked on Vitamin Water, the Nets, a few different things. But right now,
Delta Airlines is the. The main thing I'm on.
Cynthia 3:00
Awesome. Awesome. I'm a big customer of Delta Airlines, so I probably see your work all the time. Me and Delta go
together really bad.
Donovan 3:07
So we love that.
Cynthia 3:09
So talk to me a little bit. Donovan, you said this is the way you think and you love to be able to work in a space
that aligns with how you think. How would you discover, describe how you think?
Donovan 3:21
I think for me, I am always just drawn to emotional nuance. I think the shows that I enjoy the most, the books,
the friends and people and conversations, is just moments when somebody says something or you read something or
hear something that just puts a specific, I don't know, draws attention to an emotional reality somebody is
experiencing. And not to say that has to be for a specific reason, but just being able to chew on things, kind of
connect. Like, I think my style of strategy often is pulling from a lot of disparate places and showing how, you
know, they're connected through principle or connected through emotion or connected through any number of things
and helping to others to sort of. For me, my intentions often are, you know, when I see this connection, when I
see this experience that excites me. And like, I want to share, like I'm. By nature, I just want to share things
I've learned to other people or share things that I think are especially beautiful to other people. And so I think
this is a job that is exactly that, where your job is to excite creatives, excite clients, excite whatever room
that you're in with things that are going on in the world, things that are going on with people, things that are
going on on, you know, Instagram, whatever the music, whatever the case may be. So. So yeah, I think I, I would do
that for free. And I'm. I'm glad I don't have to.
Cynthia 4:54
I know that's right. Look, we just have to be honest about it. You could do it for free, but I'm glad you're not
doing it for free. So, you know what? I want to dig into a little bit more. Donovan, you talked about emotional
nuance, and I know that Wieden is exceptional when it comes to emotional storytelling and bringing that into how
you do work, how you create creative, and how you guys bring ideas to life. What I'm curious about is what is the
balance between data and making data driven decisions and allowing Creatives to kind of go with their gut and to
lean into that emotional nuance. Can you talk a little bit about how you guys balance the data rigor with the
emotional rigor?
Donovan 5:32
Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, they've never really been mutually exclusive or one or the other. I think sometimes
when we say data, we sort of. It becomes the bummer, at least on the creative side. It becomes the bummer of,
like, you know, oh, I just feel this. So, like, why do I need to validate it? Or it becomes. People think of it as
purely statistics or purely, you know, some sort of business numbers. But I think, you know, something that one of
my former mentors and bosses helped to show me early in my career is data is anything. It's. It can be a stat, but
it can also be a lyric that you, you know, that a lot of people are really resonating with. It can also be, you
know, a book. It can be a quotation. It could be a poem. It could be a trend that you. You've picked up that
you've stitched together through TikTok and Instagram. Like, data is just information about the world and people.
And I think for me, there's just so much out there that the. The, you know, there's this. I can't. I don't know
who said it, but there's this quote that everything that needs to be said has already been said, but since no one
was listening, everything has to be said again. And I think for me, I often will find a lot, like, insight about
something right now from books that are 40 years old or from, you know, research discoveries that happened, you
know, years ago or different in a different sector. And so to me, I think the data just helps make an idea more
sellable, especially when you're in the business context. This is commercial art, not art. You have to have
involved clients. You have to have someone buy your idea. And so it helps to support and bolster, but also it just
helps to ground in something real. And even I think what I often find is I might have a gut intuition that turns
out to be true, but through folding in the, you know, a specific data point, Whether it be TikTok videos, whether
it be a stat or whatever, my intuition suddenly has more dimension. And I'm able to. Even if I intuitively thought
that that thing was real and recognized it, it helped to put a point on it. And I think with our work, so much of
it is about this, you know, the point, like, you know, like the sharpness of the nuance um, because that's. That's
where people feel.
Cynthia 7:56
I love it. I think of Data a lot. Donovan is kind of the closed captioning of a story, where it's like, sometimes
you don't get the story if you're just looking at a story on mute. But if you have the closed captions, you can
kind of understand what's going on because you're looking at it, you're hearing it, you're reading it. So I love
the way you articulated it. I'm also reminded of Dolce. Dochi. Doce.
Donovan 8:19
Dochi, Doce and Gabbana was on your mind.
Cynthia 8:23
I mean, Dolce is always on my mind, let's be honest. But I was thinking about Dochi, who just won that Grammy
recently, and she just has an amazing creative story, and it's one of just great authenticity. And I heard her say
recently that she reached a point in her life where she just wanted to start producing creative. And if she would
have waited for Data to produce, we would have never seen who Dochi is as an artist and as a contributor to
culture. And so I'm just grateful for people like her that just kind of push past what feels uncomfortable to get
to creative brilliance. Are there other people that inspire you out there today that are pushing past perhaps
their barriers to creativity?
Donovan 9:05
Yeah, I mean, I'm inspired by Dochi in the music realm. Inspired by Dochi, inspired by Tyler, the creator,
inspired by, you know, Donald Kendrick, certainly this year. But just more broadly, um, I think, because, I don't
know, because it's so easy for creativity in whatever realm you're in, whether it's advertising, whether it's
film, whether it's music, to. It's so easy for it to become an imitation of something else. Where, you know, you
see that this trend is going, you know, this type of, you know, sonic structure or these type of lyrics are going.
So, like, let me mimic that. Or these types of films are working. Let me go, you know, repackage something that,
you know, revival. Revivals are a big piece of that. Like, we're redoing every movie because it's working. That's
what the trends are saying. And, you know, and all of these things you could say are backed by data. But I think
something that I'm especially drawn to, particularly with people I admire, but just generally my own personal
interest is, you know, toward, you know, invention and creation. And it sounds so trite to say something we
haven't seen before. But I think for me, particularly in advertising, I am. I look through the lens As a person
who
representation and having advertising resonate more equitably with more people than it has and the reality that
advertising has never really been at a point when its creative work is resonating equitably with all people. It's
always been steeped in racial bias and gender bias and, you know, you fill in the blank. And so I think for me,
part of my urgency around newness isn't just for the, you know, kind of the disruptor mindset of let's do some
rebellious mindset, do something different. For me, it's really from a thirst for. There's so much that our work
hasn't done because of the ways in which we have caked so many biases and, you know, the same styles of humor, the
same styles of emotion, you know, you know, sentimentality, even parenthood, relationships with friends and
partners, and all of these things that we feature in our work that we use to resonate with people and make
emotional stories. For me, it feels like there's still so many things we haven't seen because of who's behind the
steering wheel or because of the legacy biases. And so that is really where, you know, I'm like, yeah, that's the
trend because, like, that's, you know, where who's been serviced for the longest, but what else can we do? And for
me, you know, in the context of data, I'm always incorporating data points from outside of dominant, you know,
perspectives to more toward that, you know, where it's like, this might have been your conception of motherhood,
but had you understood this specific lens that, you know, what data point for whatever, through, through a
different version of, you know, a parent child relationship that maybe isn't as familiar with you. Just as an
example.
Cynthia 12:16
I love it. And I, I think that we're gonna have to work together as an industry to preserve the ability to tell
those stories that are different. You know, we think a lot at 8:28 about, you know, taking clients into
uncomfortable spaces so that they can feel something that will help them do something differently. And, you know,
we've been lucky that we've been able to do that together firsthand. But how do you envision that we're going to
be able to preserve the voices that are on the fringes, that aren't necessarily always on stage, so to speak,
inside these brands? What can we be doing as strategists and researchers to make sure that we're preserving those
stories that are perhaps on the fringe?
Donovan 12:56
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things is evaluating the foundations or honestly just evaluating the beliefs that
we're carrying with us for what good creativity and good work looks like. You know, I just released an essay, and
this is not a plug, it's just relevant. But I just released an essay that is. Is about questioning our
fundamentals and thinking about how so many of the things that we've been handed down from our managers from, you
know, the books, the advertising books or the, you know, I don't want to. Creativity broadly, the principles like
this is how you get to something good and resonant. But you consider, you know, I think it's 47 out of 50 of the
top 50 advertising books were written by white men. You know, just take that speaking of data, data point alone
where, you know, you're in market research and you know, what brand would move forward with any confidence about
resonating with the population with the data that, with a, with a, with a sample size that, that, that's that
skewed. But so many of our beliefs come from this place. And I think one in particular toward the point about how
do you incorporate fringe audiences is I think there is a. Particularly with brands that say they market to the
general market or the masses or whatever, they're often specifically looking for to root their work in something
quote, unquote universal, something that that is, is inherently speaking to everyone. And so, you know, in which
case we can swap anyone in there and that'll tell that story. But I think for me, something, you know,
particularly in the, you know, thinking about creativity toward newness, but also really resonating with people.
The most powerful stories in film and books and advertising, a lot of them resonate universally because they're
specific. They're coming from a specific truth with a specific group of people lived that has the different, I
want to say the dazzle of difference, but that sounds so corny. But there is a magnetism to something unique that
you hadn't considered. Like I think about the film Turning Red, that's about a young Chinese Canadian middle
schooler and her experience with her mom and her culture and all of those things coming together and telling this
really beautiful story. But it's not actually like me as a black man, that is not a teenager, still is resonating
with it. You know, did they. And I think something that Domee Shi, the director of it, she talked about when
making the film, she's saying, what is the culturally specific thing that we are pulling from to then make the
universal? And I think a lot of times we just try to look at you Know, what does everyone feel and what's the
lowest common denominator that was going to hit and we'll take focus group research. And it's like the one, the
one black person in the room or the one queer person in the room might have said something but like not enough
people said it. So it's like that's not the universal thing. But I think. But it was magnetic. There was something
to it that even though the other people that resonated with it may not be in the room or may not feel that through
that lens and context, you know, we're all talking about the same feelings. It's just about the context
surrounding it. And so I think mining and honoring fringe truths and not just settling for the lowest common
denominator I think is one way to definitely to incorporate French people and communities.
Cynthia 16:40
I love it. I love it. I want to hear a little bit more too. Donovan. Let's just call a spade a spade. There are
times that creative agencies don't necessarily align with what a brand wants. Right. And there are times that
we're called in as an agency to play Switzerland where it's like brand might hire us to then say like, hey, let's
all get on the same page about a thing. Can you talk about a time when perhaps, you know, you as an agency, a
creative agency, didn't necessarily agree with what a client said? And how do you then get on the same page so
that you're working towards the same insight, the same universal truth? To use your language, and I think it's
common language for all of us. But how do you think about concessions or the process to get to an insight that is
going to unlock amazing creative.
Donovan 17:28
Yeah, I mean it's, it's something that obviously naturally happens. And I think there was one example where there
was a brand that we had been operating with their US based clients and had an understanding of this particular
brand and their relationship with their audience and especially their core audience that was, was diverse and was
able to. And that brand was popular because of the diversity of that core. And then you had global clients come
into the fray that didn't necessarily have the cultural context to understand how important these people are. And
again, those legacy beliefs started coming up of like, you know, oh, we've got to get to something universal. We
don't want to be too niche because we need to talk to everybody. And all of these, whether it be B, school
principals or just generally things that we think are so intuitive that they feel right and coming from a place of
like, no we don't want to exclude, but actually by negating this core or treating them as if they aren't as
valuable to your brand as they are, this whole tower could crumble. And so I think in that particular instance,
and, you know, some of it had another layer of which is very common in our industry, where it isn't just an
intellectual argument about, you know, you know, X's and Y's and, you know, audiences and brand. There's the layer
of, you know, biases that are naturally entangled with this when you're involving communities and audiences that.
Whose identity is so tied to, whether it be race, whether it be gender, and sometimes clients who don't come from
those groups sort of treat it. It's like, oh, we're just having an intellectual debate, not realizing that you had
to work up to say this thing and are gonna go home angry about this thing. But one of the things that I think I
often try to do is offer. Offer context as much as I can and not just make it about an objective argument. To your
point about data is where you're, you know, okay, this is a gap for you. This is a blind spot. You know, how do
you, how do you build a fill. A blind spot that can be subjective is through data and all sorts of data, whether
it be statistics about, you know, you know, you know, the smallness of the group, but the influence of the group.
And so, you know, bringing in different data points, like, I don't remember exactly what was in that presentation,
but just as an example for anything is there's this data point that from last year or maybe the year before that
black influencers were. Black creatives were something like five to ten times more influential than their white
counterparts, but were getting paid much less. You know, I knew that but.
Cynthia 20:18
I knew that but was coming. I knew the but was coming.
Donovan 20:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It always comes. It always comes. And it's one of those things that, you know,
particularly for people who are just looking through the lens of size. Well, if you're just looking through the
lens of size, you will always favor the white community. You are always favor. Well, men are size wise, but just
like legacy will, just like, oh, men, whatever, you always favor, you know, heterosexual relationships, whatever
the case may be, but then sort of bring this data point of, yes, size may be the case, not be in this community's
favor, but look of influence, you know, like, like if this person says that this thing is cool, they not only. And
the data showed that they not only influence people who come from that same community, they also influence others
outside of that community. And so filling in, you know, presentations and conversations through the lens of, I
think, you know, this is really, these kind of conversations, excuse me, is really when data comes in handy where
you're able to like, you know, oh, this isn't a subjective argument anymore. This is, this is just like, you know,
see, look, the facts are the facts. The facts are the facts.
Cynthia 21:30
Yeah, well, I am so curious and I've been chewing on this idea for a while, but I feel like connection in this new
world order, so to speak, it's gonna have to look different because, you know, especially here in the United
States, we're just in a very div a time. I think we can all agree that as a country we're very divided, but we're
even seeing it on a global level that things are just feeling very divided. So when you think about the core of
what we do as researchers and as advertisers, connection is such a central piece of that. How do you think that
connection, if you think connection should evolve, how do you think connection needs to evolve so that we can
still get to the core truths which are, you know, fact based, insight based truths that help us deliver. How do
you think connections should evolve, if at all?
Donovan 22:20
I mean, I guess I look at it through the lens of with. For me personally, and I'm not saying this for all
strategists or Australian records. For me personally, I want, you know, I don't just want my work to be successful
or effective, I want it to do all those things. But with anything that I do, I want it to be additive. You know, I
don't just want it to be neutral, certainly don't want it to be negative. I want it to add something of value out
in the world. And that could be any number of things. And I think sometimes, particularly for brands, that is
where the most powerful ideas come. When it's, you're not just considering what is it that we can say. It's more
of what is it that the world needs our brand to say right now? Or what is it that the world needs from us? And I
don't mean that in a, you know, to, to, you know, entirely always political or entirely always, even though
everything's political. But I don't mean that in, in simply through the context of social justice or, or. But more
of, you know, each brand is trying to root in an emotional idea and trying to connect with some part of culture.
And I think when it comes to connection and it comes to, you know, so many, so many points of, points of
connection evaporating. So many points of seeming commonality seeming to evaporate. I think there is a space and a
need and a thirst for brands to not necessarily go the route of like, you know, we're all one people. Like, you
know, put aside our differences because there are very real differences. There are wars going on, there are
children being, you know, murdered. And like there are real things that I think aren't just as frivolous as like,
you know, let's just all come together. But I think something powerful that our work can do is to, you know, show
people to themselves, remind people of themselves, remind people of things that, you know, oh, I actually was, you
know, I didn't, you know, I didn't think you would take me there. But I actually do believe in this specific
thing. I think back to Hunger Games when the Hunger Games film franchise was coming out and it was right around
the time that I think Trayvon Martin had been murdered and several other things were happening in social current
and there were protests and things like that. And I don't know that I don't think this is what the film's
intention because they come from books and things. But there was an interesting way in which that film offered
emotional context for protest. You know, where, you know, where it's still, it's a white woman protagonist, you
know, but they are revolting against an oppressive, you know, system. And I think whether folk realized it or not,
I'm sure that there were people who were looking down on black people in the streets protesting as like, oh,
they're rioting or whatever who saw that film. And even if they didn't maybe change their opinion fully off was
their, their, their empathy maybe got dimensionalized a bit. And I think our work, you know, whether, and I don't
know that it has to be always ham fisted or heavy handed or serious, but I think our work can, can do that and
rise to the time.
Cynthia 25:34
Yeah, it's interesting you bring up this idea of protesting and you know, we're seeing it in the zeitgeist today.
I'm sure you've seen it. But there's a lot of silent protesting going on, specifically from the 92% of black women
who, you know, very verbally are saying, no, I'm not going to speak on certain topics. And so, you know, I'm
curious, have you thought at all about these silent protests of sorts that are happening and how or if that might
impact how we reach audiences that feel left out of the conversations? You Know, I mean, we can't ignore what's
happening, particularly here in the United States in terms of DEI shifting from a federal landscape perspective.
But you know, what are your thoughts on these silent protests that are out there and how might that change how we
do our work?
Donovan 26:20
Yeah, I mean, people don't feel heard, people, people feel dismissed and they feel like their value to these
brands and companies isn't being seen. And you know, you think about, you know, target and the 40 day protest of
that brand that from their backtracking of DEI and the ways in which so many of their core customers felt
betrayed, you know, where, you know, okay, yes, you said you were going to put, you put these black owned
businesses in your company and you put us in the ads. But then when it was time to show up, you crumbled, you
withered. And I think, you know, regardless of the group or community that feels that way, a lot of brands do feel
that way. I think something that I've begun to think more about for brands is for the brands I work on, at least
is, is oftentimes we're trying to solve business problems when it's really a relationship problem. You know, and I
think, and there's so much, you know, I, last year did a lot of research on relationship psychology and, and what
happens when, you know, relationships break down. And it tended to come down to three things. It was like, you
know, regardless of the argument topic, it was about care, concern, respect and recognition or power and control.
Everything tended to come down to one of those three things. And in a brand context, you think about something
just, you know, it's an easy example. Target, you know, this, this is, is about care and concern. Like you, you
are, you know, and in some ways respect and recognition. But really it's like, oh, you showed in a very loud way
you don't care about us. And so if I'm target, it's not just first, first I would think about, you know, maybe we
should have stood on business. But outside of that, I don't think it's just a, oh, how can we, you know, PR damage
this thing or like, you know, look at it from a PR perspective, look at it from a business perspective. Volume,
traffic. No, think about it. This is a relationship. Like what would, how like you need to, to repair this from
like repair the care and concern to your community members who are by the way, when so many, like it's, it's not
just black, there, there are many, you know, other communities of color that are equal, that equally feel
slighted. There are white allies who feel like, nah, this isn't right. Like, there's so many people that you have
hurt by doing this. And so to me, I think, and I know you started with silent protest, specifically among black
women, but I think there is. Looking at it through the lens of relationships, I say would be one thing.
Cynthia 29:00
That I might offer up that's beautiful. The idea of relationship, I think, is really an interesting way to
dimensionalize it because it does feel like, to use the target example, it almost feels. Feels like an infidelity
has happened. And so it will be interesting to see how they try to repair it. Right. Because, you know, we both
know how it has typically happened in the past. It's like, let's PR this issue away. But the truth is, it is
expensive to win people back. And so, yeah, I just wonder, you know, when you think about brands that are being
forced to make a stand or decide not to, can you talk a little bit, Donovan, about what it takes to earn people's
trust back when it comes to getting them back to believing that their brand cares about them? Because, you know,
when that infidelity happens, you might take your man back, but it might take a minute.
Donovan 29:48
It might take a minute for sure. Absolutely. As it should. And I think the word you just said earn is. Is. Is
probably the biggest thing. And I don't, you know, I don't have a ton of examples that come to mind and brands
that have successfully done this, but I think sincerity and vulnerability are, you know, how you do it in real
life. You know, you, you let your partner down, you let your parent down. You know, you let your kid down. It's,
it's, it's not about like a quick are bad. And like, here's showering you with gifts. You know, it's not about,
it's, it's. You gotta really show some humility. And I think something that companies are always afraid, often
afraid to do is, is to show any sign of weakness, to show any sign that they made a legitimate mistake that they
shouldn't have. You know, I think there's an easy ease in. There's an ease in explaining something away or just
reverting to, like, you know, it'll blow over or whatever. And I think my. And maybe this is taking us too far
left, but I think my experience is the emotional shortcomings of people tend to extend into the brands. You know,
you have people who are running these companies who are incapable of looking at themselves and to hold their
capacity to do damage with other people. You know, so they have relationships where they are dominating the
relationship and not apologizing. They have, you know, you know, you know, have some wound in their own personal
life that prevents them from being apologetic or prevents them from, from having a level of self awareness that
would be able to be conscious of the impact they have on others. Like they're like, these are all like personal
human things. But the issue is folk empower then move forward with that sort of thing where it's like, oh, people
are saying bad things about my brand. Oh no, it couldn't be true. Like, I mean, you have to be exaggerating. Like
you got gaslighters everywhere. You got, you have people, you have humans. I don't, I don't mean to be
disparaging, but you have humans everywhere. And you know, so far AI is not in charge. It's still people. And so I
think there, you know, if I, if I had to wave a magic wand on how to solve a lot of these problems, I would point
it toward people healing themselves and people in power healing themselves. And then let's see where we get to
after that.
Cynthia 32:28
Oh gosh, yeah, we look, I'll wave my wand as well to hopefully see that change. But it is so interesting because I
do think our own experiences reflect in even the work that we do. Which is why it is so important to have, you
know, different types of people around the table. Of course. But you know, I do think it's important for us to do
the introspective work. I have a nine year old nephew who I'm super close to and more than a couple of times I've
had to apologize to him. He's nine years old, but it's like, yeah, I've had to say like, hey, I don't have the
emotional capacity to talk to you about that right now. Right. Like auntie needs a minute. And I do think that.
But learning how to be emotionally vulnerable, even to a kid, it makes me better at the work that I do. Because
you're right that it absolutely takes a level of humility to be able to connect.
Donovan 33:18
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I love that you mentioned that because it's a thing that, you know, as much as we think
we can be, you know, insular beings and all self growth can happen just like by like reading enough or by, you
know, willing it into existence. Like you need these relationships to interactions to show you to yourself and to,
you know, be able to have the humility to the point where it's like, even though they're not an adult, they're a
child, they still are another human across from you that, you know, I think that there weren't, you know, there
weren't many adults apologizing to kids 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
Cynthia 33:57
You don't ask. In my day, you didn't ask adults those types of questions.
Donovan 34:01
No, no. But it came from, you know, again, people, you know, parents and aunts and uncles and people who, you
know, were, were, you know, didn't realize why their motivations were what they were and why their defenses went
up in certain situations and why they were, you know, it was really embarrassment, why they couldn't apologize,
but they translated into anger for how dare you talk back to me? Like, you know, shame will make you, you know,
put walls up and, you know, treat someone mean or badly and say like, don't talk back, rather than like, they had
a point. But you're. But you're EMP power. So, like, no, you can't talk back. And, yeah, whatever.
Cynthia 34:42
I love it. It's like many decades later, I'm now asking my mom questions about, like, you did this back then. Can
we talk about that?
Donovan 34:49
Yeah, can we talk? Can we, can we circle back? Yeah, exactly.
Cynthia 34:53
There was a time. This is like, has nothing to do with research, but I, I went to a teen club, and I was not
supposed to be at this club, and it was called Trendsetters in Akron, Ohio. And. And there was a talent show there
that night. And I said, mom, we're going to the talent show, which we were going to a talent show. I just didn't
say it was at the Trendsetters. And next thing I know, Donovan, there were all the popular kids in Akron at our
time were there at Trendsetters this night, and I hear on the loudspeaker Cindy Harris to the front. Cindy Harris
to the front. And, yeah, I had to apologize. It took me a couple decades, but, yes, the relationship has since
repaired.
Donovan 35:35
But that was, yeah, amazing. Yeah, it takes some time. That's so funny.
Cynthia 35:43
So talk to me a little bit about. What do you wish that market researchers knew to better enable the work that you
do? As a strategy director, what do you feel like researchers can do to amplify your work and what you need from
researchers to be excellent?
Donovan 36:01
Yeah. I mean, first, I think I have of as envy, in a way of, you know, so much of market research, particularly
qualitative, is time sitting in rooms, hearing from people, learning from people. And so there's, you know,
whereas on. On our side, there's often not as much time to, you know, do the man on, you know, personal, the
street interviews or do the, you know, sit in all the focus groups. And so I think there's a wealth of knowledge,
but I think in the, if I had a wand or if I had an offering, it would maybe be the understanding the difference
between interesting and useful. I think that, you know, you know, if you're in market research, you have an innate
deep curiosity about people and you get excited like, you know, like you get excited when people are telling you
things that you can imagine as like being especially useful and interesting and like you want to go share, like I
want to go share interesting things that I've heard in focus groups and things of that nature. But I think, you
know, in the, in the, in the sharing process from, from, from conversation to, we have to then use this to inform
potentially just 30 seconds or potentially, you know, a brand, you know, being able to understand the specific
objectives and intentions with a brand and being able to, and this is sometimes impossible if you're not close
enough, but being able to distill into, you know, we're going to share everything we got but like you know, a
filter maybe of toward the things that are especially, you know, seen especially useful versus fascinating. But
maybe I have to dig through 10 fascinating things to get to the useful thing.
Cynthia 37:46
Mm, super helpful. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you're making me think of something else I wanted to chat
with you about and that is can you talk about a time when there was an insight that was especially useful and it
perhaps changed the way you approach strategy or it changed the way you briefed creatives on executing? Is there a
particular insight that you can think of that was salient in that way that was useful and not just interesting?
Donovan 38:12
Yeah, you mean for market research or just general market research? Let me think.
The answer is yes, but now it's like I gotta, I gotta comb through, I gotta comb through a decade plus of.
Cynthia 38:31
It can be, generally speaking, it doesn't have to be directly from research. I mean great if it is, but if you can
think of a time that there was an insight that you found that was useful and not just interesting so that we can
help.
Donovan 38:43
Yeah, yeah. So I, I, so I used to work on the lottery back when I was living and working in Atlanta. And it was
oddly one of my favorite things to, to, you know, like their, their proceeds went to help education and just the
world of possibility and things like that was just a fun, interesting brand to think about. We did on these, these
ride alongs, you know, for people who Are, you know, you know, scratching or you know, buying tickets and things
like that and just understanding motivations for folk. And I think one of the things that was really interesting
was so much of lottery advertising is focused on the big jackpots because obviously that is the huge thing that,
you know, hits billion dollars like all the time now, which is crazy.
Cynthia 39:33
I don't think that I may have played a time or two on the bad days I play.
Donovan 39:39
But I think. But in those conversations, like in those conversations you get to understand that yes, there's huge
swath of people that like, that is the motivation, the biggest number. But when you talk to them, they talk about
the hundred dollar wins that meant that they were going to go out to dinner with their spouse on a Friday night
and that was special for them or the just 10, 15, like oh, 200. The smaller amounts A felt more likely and then B
translated into immediate moments of treating yourself where it's like not changing your life, but it is this,
this moment of like, oh, I was going into the weekend after a long week, just planning to, to order, you know,
Papa John's, but like, nah, we're going to, we're going to Cheesecake. You know, we're going to ball at
Cheesecake. We got, we got $100 from the, from the scratcher. And I think that was something that definitely
helped inform some other ways we began to think about how we might connect with folk.
Cynthia 40:51
That's amazing. And that's why you're good at what you do. You're able to, and I've always admired this about you,
you're able to take the world not just in the immediate, but in the surrounding elements of the world and distill
it into a truth that really can transform the way we think about creative. And I just, I love how you study life.
You are obviously wicked good when it comes to being a creative director, strategy director, but I've just always
admired how you studied life outside of the objective. And so I'm grateful that you've shared your wisdom with us
today.
Donovan 41:24
That's super sweet. Thank you so much.
Cynthia 41:26
Of course. So, okay, we. In every interview with eight rapid fire questions, you don't have to think too hard
about them, but just want to kind of know what immediately comes to mind. So what's the first word that comes to
mind when you hear market research?
Donovan 41:42
Helpful.
Cynthia 41:44
What's one buzzword in research or marketing that you would love to retire?
Donovan 41:51
AA for African American. I think just say black. Like, like includes more people. I'm tired of it.
Cynthia 42:00
Yeah. Okay. Well noted. Name a brand that you feel like its consumer connection. Right.
Donovan 42:08
Telfar.
Cynthia 42:10
And I'm sitting right here with my Telfar. Telfee.
Donovan 42:15
You see it?
Cynthia 42:16
You see it? Would you rather have more time or more budget for a project?
Donovan 42:24
Budget.
Cynthia 42:26
Fill in the blank. I need the money.
Donovan 42:27
Yeah, yeah.
Cynthia 42:28
Show me the money. Show me the money. Fill in the blank. The future of marketing research is.
Donovan 42:38
Is more intimate.
Cynthia 42:42
Okay. Name one book, podcast, or article that every marketing researcher or brand builder should enjoy.
Donovan 42:51
There isn't one. I think you can find something valuable anywhere.
Cynthia 42:55
Okay. And last. Actually, two more questions. What was your dream job when you were a kid?
Donovan 43:04
I think I wanted to be a comic. Or, like, a chef. One of the two. Maybe a funny chef.
Cynthia 43:10
Okay. I like it. I like it. And then last but not least, coffee or tea?
Donovan 43:15
Coffee.
Cynthia 43:16
Okay. Well, Donovan, you're incredible. Thank you again for taking the time. And I'm just grateful for the
friendship that we built. And just to catch up with you, we need to spend more time even outside of this to catch
up on all the things. But thank you so much.
Donovan 43:31
For sure. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Cynthia 43:34
Of course. Okay. And we're wrapped.
Episode created and produced by Cynthia Harris and Emily Byrski of 8:28 Insights.
Score provided by Swoope and Natalie Lauren Sims, friends of the 8:28 Insights Collective.